Interview with Hailey Firstman:
following your dreams as an adult
This interview took place Spring 2022 and has been lightly edited for this transcript.
To catch the latest from Hailey, go to:
IG: @haileyfirstman
Spotify: Mr. Marigold
Melissa:
I like to ask people to start by sharing something in their physical space that might give clues to our listeners about who we're talking to. So if you were to look around and almost find an object or something that has a little mini story with it, does anything catch your eye?
Hailey:
Well, I have a fish shaped purse which is hanging in a very special place in my room, and his name is Mr. Marigold, and he's kind of an icon of sorts, but a very big part of my decor and my artist name. I found him at a thrift store and I just took him out and people grew to love him. And I don't know, people just kind of turned their heads when they saw this fish shaped purse, and it was at a time where people weren't really talking to each other much amidst the pandemic. So it kind of broke that bubble a bit and caused some joy. And yeah, I love Mr. Marigold a lot.
Melissa:
Yeah, I have heard about this Mr. Marigold, and I was excited to learn more about this infamous fish. Did you name him? How did he get his name?
Hailey:
I named him, yes. I named him after the marigold flower. There's some symbolism in the flower of grief, but also redemption and finding joy, amids grief. But I also, he's yellow, so kinda it's a little on the nose too.
Melissa:
I love the thought behind it and just to know that he's been a force for connection, it sounds like, in your life. And, and also he's kind of the, the representative of your, your musician moniker, right?
Hailey:
Totally, yeah. Yeah. Kind of a hyperbolized version of myself. I give him different qualities, like he loves looking in the mirror or he has crippling insomnia.
Melissa:
I love the play. And one thing that I've picked up from some of the multidisciplinary creatives that I've been speaking to is that the function of having some other character or name, especially when there's so many different parts of self, can be kind of fun to play with. So I'm excited to learn more that just as we get acquainted with you and all the many gifts that you have. Could you lay it out for us, put on the table some of these hats that you wear?
Hailey:
Okay. Well, I would say one hat is my music. I have been writing music, like writing songs and playing guitar since high school but kind of mid pandemic. I had a friend that offered to help me record an album. I'd been writing songs for so long, like hundreds of little songs just kind of written in my bedroom on guitar. And so that was a really special kind of thing that allowed me to finally take it more seriously and allow myself to really spend time thinking about it all and a story that my songs could tell together. And so I have an album now done and I'm beginning to release it and I now have now finished actually recording another album, another project with the same person under a different name. And we're starting another thing. I realized I love the production side of music a lot as well as the writing side. And it feels like two different hats for sure. I think music in general I've realized has lent itself well to my multidisciplinary creative because it involves like me making visuals for my songs or designing an album cover, but also, writing a song in my room or interacting with musicians.
Melissa:
Yeah. And if, just to reflect that back, So it sounds like you were pretty prolific, you were creating things on your own and it actually took having a friend or someone, a creative collaborator kind of see you and invite you to take it to the next level?
Hailey:
Totally. I think it's so important and I think I'd had collaborations in the past that maybe I was more excited than the other person, and it never fully actualized or different collaborations that hadn't worked out as well. I think I've always tended to do things on my own, and this was the first time both of us were just so happily surprised. Like we didn't know each other super well when we started. And it's just become such an amazing collaboration and we both care so much. He put so much into just actualizing my vision and that was very special to have someone care enough to do that.
Melissa:
That's great. And I love hearing that you're already expanding into new albums, new names, so we're definitely gonna keep our eye on this duo here.
And he probably didn't know about your content creative side as much because you were also uncovering it through this process.
Hailey:
Yes, certainly. I studied graphic design. My dad is very much a creative, so I grew up very much encouraged to follow my dreams, and I definitely recognize that as a privilege more and more as I get older. But yeah, I've always kind of been more in the visual art side of things because that's where my dad is in the creative sphere. I think music has unlocked a new little relationship between those visual and sonic stories.
Melissa:
Someone just needs to just glance at your website and they will see some strong evidence of what a mood you create with your, your creations, your designs. I don't even know how, what programs you make these things on, but it looks so good!
Do you mostly create artistic things like visuals for the music, or do you sometimes create them stand alone?
Hailey:
So I think in terms of social media, like creating short form videos and things like that a lot of that was unlocked by trying to make things for music. Like, I started experimenting with stop motion and I realized I really loved doing that. So a lot of it does have to do with music, but I also started out as a studio art major in school, so I grew up painting. My dad paints and so I love painting, but I can also sometimes hate painting. I think I don't usually love them all at the same time.
Melissa:
Yeah. You have a separate relationship it seems, even before music, through painting. And I know you also do some writing. Tell me about that.
Hailey:
So that's actually the hat I'm currently caught up in right now is I write. I have two first drafts for young adult novels that I just kind of decided I'm gonna start taking this course on editing. I've been writing for a long time and that was another thing me and my dad would do together. He would kind of like critique my writing and we would work on it together growing up. So I always wrote little stories and loved creative writing as a kid. And me and one of my best friends wrote a book together in high school where the point of view goes back and forth. So that was my first experience with a long form story. But it kind of launched me into realizing like, oh, like I could just write a book if I want to, which I think everyone should write a book. That's one of my opinions. Cause I think everyone has a story to tell. And I think it, it seems like a really scary thing, the idea of writing a book, but it's so special in so many ways to just watch a story come out of you in such a long form. So that's, that's another hat of mind.
Melissa:
Yeah. Yeah. You've got quite the wardrobe here and it seems as I'm learning, you're no stranger to creative collaboration even with your father like receiving feedback and kind of opening up your work to be looked at and discussed.
Hailey:
Yeah. I think I'm also lucky that I learned very early to have a healthy relationship with critique. I think critique can so often feel like this personal attack and it is so vulnerable to show people your art because you put yourself into it. And art is often this expression of something deep inside you. And I think there are stages of the creative process that shouldn't be critiqued. And that's something I've learned like with writing. I think when I'm writing a first draft critique is not helpful. But I think having that healthy relationship with critique and with collaboration is important.
Melissa:
Yeah. How special to have a mentor so close at home. I love what you said about knowing where you are in your own process and knowing when it's important to know when to be more protective of your work, the early ideas. And then when you cross that threshold to readiness to to say, ‘okay, world, what do you think?’ Or maybe not world, but even ‘hello, trusted person or group of people. Give me some compassionate feedback here.’
Hailey:
Yeah. I was just thinking about how important having one person to share with is. Like with music, I have someone when I write a song and I'm like, I think this is a good one. I send it over. Or with my book, I would read my parents every new chapter. Just to have someone kind of going along the journey with me, like in kind of a loving, non-critical way is so important and helpful and kind of keeps me accountable. Like someone cares about this in some way. Obviously I think it's a personal journey of like, I need to care about this, but there's something special in having someone to go through it with you.
Melissa:
For sure. And the fact that you're open to having your parents give you feedback on your book is I think the testament to the kind of relationship you have. I'm not sure if everyone would love their parents in their work…
Hailey:
Yeah. I'm very lucky. It might be a trusted friend for some
Melissa:
As we've gotten to know some of your hats, I'm sure there's still dimensions of you that we have not even gotten to hear about yet. But how do you talk about yourself? Like, if you go to a party and say you're just meeting and greeting people and they're like, Hey, who are you and what do you get up to? How do you answer that?
Hailey:
I think that's something I sometimes struggle with at times because, once I start talking about the things I'm passionate about, I'll get into it. And so it's almost like an insecurity. Like I don't wanna overshare about all the things I'm doing. But I think I can always tell when someone really wants to know and hear about it, but I think I'll usually kind of say like “I like making music.” I think music is the one that's the easiest for me to talk about first, because I think it's easy to relate with and just everyone listens to music. But I think I definitely talk less about my writing with people. I'm not sure why but it feels harder to explain. I'm not afraid to share about everything, but I think I definitely tend to take a more humble, ‘share as much as you want to hear about this’ approach.
Melissa:
Yeah. We do pick up on signals to sense if the people who we're talking to wanna hear more and are down to go further in the conversation with us.
The wording that you just used was, “I like making music.”
Hailey:
Not “I'm a musician.”
Melissa:
Yeah. Then that nuance I think is an interesting one to kind of look at. So yeah, what does “I like making music kind of convey or open up for you?”
Hailey:
Hmm. That's interesting because in my reflection I was kind of thinking about how important it is to kind of take side passions as serious passions. And I think it's so easy, especially in our society to want to get paid for something. And I think that's something I've learned to do is take my passion seriously. But it's funny that I said “make music”, not “I'm a musician”. I think it's me humbling myself, cuz I think there's so much I still want to learn about it. I feel good about saying I'm an artist or like I'm a creative, but it is funny like even saying like, I'm a writer or I'm, I'm a musician. Because I have all of these different hats that I wear I think it's easier to not feel like that's who I am. I guess. Like, because it's not the only thing. It's hard to say I am a musician, you know?
Melissa:
Right, right. You're just illuminating that we can have different relationships with these different parts of self and some are more developed, the relationship might have been there for longer than others. Maybe it conveys how closely identified you are with that thing.
Hailey:
Yeah, yeah. Cause I think there's certain people that have been playing guitar for so many years and are so amazing. Like, I think I can identify myself as a songwriter cuz that's kind of the thing I've crafted over the years is songwriting. But I think the actual production side of things, like the making the album is still something that's new for me and has been exciting to explore, but something I have a lot to learn in.
Melissa:
Wow. You are a humble person. You seem like a musician to me. You mentioned treating your side passions as serious or more seriously. What did that process look like for you?
Hailey:
That's a good question. I think it honestly happened amidst like shelter in place because I lost my job and so I suddenly had all this time on my hands and was inside all the time. And I think throughout most of my life, I have kept myself very busy all the time. Leave in the morning, go from thing to thing to thing, and in my head I thought I'll get around to these dreams or these, these things. I'll write that book like later in life. And I think that happens a lot that I'll get around to it eventually thing.I think with shelter in place in the pandemic it was suddenly felt like that time.
Hailey:
Like it felt like I have this time on my hands and 'm alone, I have time to truly chase these things that I've always wanted to do. And I think obviously during the pandemic artists and creatives experienced that time in so many different ways. There was so much grief and apathy for a lot of people towards their work who were the feeling what worked for me once doesn't really work anymore or just kind of a lack of inspiration.
I think I had times of that as well, but I think often that grief and those hard times can lead to a kind of a reconciliation and finding a new way to do things. And I think coming out of it now that I do have a job, I create time and I've stayed with those things that I gave the time to and I've realized like, oh, I can give these things time. I just wasn't being intentional about it before. And I almost feel like I'm working on everything the same amount that I was when I didn't have a job. Just because I think once you start working on those things that you're passionate about, it's like the creativity can go in a new way.
Melissa:
I'm hearing that time is a very essential ingredient, like even stopping the busyness of life during the pandemic and dedicating more space for these passions. And I'm glad you brought up the fact that you have a job. Is it a 9-5?
Hailey:
Yeah.
Melissa:
Okay. So that begs the question, how do you have time to do all these other things and how do you fit it in?
Hailey:
Yeah. I think because I have that passion and me doing these things is me following my dreams, so I wanna do it when I'm done with work. I think I'm lucky. I work at a nonprofit, it's called Front Porch and I love it. It's like a free coffee house for students and like a community space. Pretty much I'm the art director, I do all the visual things and video and apparel, murals, all kinds of things. So I really get to use my multidisciplinary skills in the job because of how much kind of flexibility and freedom I've been given. So I would say I'm very lucky in my current job to end my day and still have energy cuz I fully recognize that that's a privilege and there's a lot of jobs that are so draining and it's hard to like keep going at the end of the day or there's things that you just have to do after work that kind of prevent you from having that time.
Melissa:
I'm almost hearing that you get energy or you're not depleted because your job involves creative work, which is interesting because I could imagine someone maybe listening and being afraid of like, Oh, what if my full-time job was so creative, would I have anything left for my own projects?
Hailey:
Yeah. I think that's, I think there's such a narrative of scarcity within the creative world. Like, I'm gonna run out or like, I'm not gonna be inspired anymore. And I honestly, I think that that there are those times of burnout for sure, like where maybe the thing that you're doing you need to have a break from or the thing that you're doing isn't working anymore. But I don't think that creativity runs dry in that way. If it's done in a way that's honest and it's something you care about. I think when you're doing something that excites you and you care about, you wanna do it more. I think, for me, what I've seen is the more I dive into my writing or the more I dive into each thing, the more I'm thinking about it and the more ideas I have. There's a book called If You Want to Write by Brenda Eland that's like one of the books that inspires me the most and I've gifted to so many people and she talks about that a lot of kind of that lie of like, “I'm gonna run out of creativity”.
Melissa:
Yeah, I love that message. There's an abundant supply and actually it can generate more or can have a multiplying effect. Could you run us through your week. When are you writing? What are you doing on the weekend?
Hailey:
So it kind of does depend cuz I very much like you said, I'll have my fixation but it's constantly changing. I've realized that I just have these cycles where I'll have to listen to myself and be like, I need to take a little break from writing songs. Like I feel burnt out on that. And so usually I'll transition to something else.
I've realized having a routine is really good for me. I'm not always good at doing it, but structure is really important for me. So I try to move my body and exercise. I think just in general idleness, that's one thing that I find to be the most important in creating kind of my inspiration. So throughout the week I try to find times of not thinking, and I think exercise can be that for me.
Melissa:
I had to do a double take on that. At first I thought you were saying don't be idle, stay in motion so you just don't stop. But I love this is the opposite message, we need time to be still.
Hailey:
Yeah. More like mindlessness. Cause I think that's another thing I always am talking about is how fast everyone is moving and we're constantly looking at our phones and waiting to be entertained. But I think so much of our creative needs space and time and moves slowly.
Melissa:
So you build in times for idleness in your week?
Hailey:
Yeah, often with writing, I'll do some sort of exercise after work and then I'll kind of just sit on my laptop and, and start writing. I do that for as long as I see fit and it's kind of like that with all of them.
I'll just be done with work and then I'll sit with my guitar. And I think something that relates all of my hats is they're all different ways of me processing where I'm at in one way or another. Like some sort of expression or listening to myself. So like with songs, maybe, like, if I'm in a more tumultuous time, I think I'll often process through music what I'm feeling. So like maybe in the summertime I tend to do more action based creative things like my screen printing or painting. Cause I think that’s a season where I'm not as much in my emotions. It's a season of action. So that's not really my week at a glance. I think my weeks are always different.
Melissa:
Yeah, I'm hearing that. And you're bringing attention to different durations of time: the seasons. You answered a question that I normally ask and I'm so glad you did, which is kind of what are some of the themes that pull together all the different things you do? And just this note about processing what's going on. So yeah, it makes sense that depending on what's going on in your life, you have all these different tools, all these different ways to process, which strikes me as very resourced and fortunate.
Hailey:
Yeah. I think that's why I'm always so encouraging of people to explore some sort of creative process because I find it so helpful in kind of channeling what it is I'm feeling or going through or processing.
Melissa:
It's free therapy :)
I have noticed with some peers and creative clients that once there's this monetary pressure, things start to feel off or feel pressurized. And I know that you're at this moment of gearing up to launch into full-time creation mode. But even now, how does the money side of things influence what you're working on?
Hailey:
I think, yeah, it's an interesting time because I'm transitioning. But right now, at the time I'm in before the transition, I feel like I'm trying my best not to let the money side of things kind of deter me from following those passions because like I said, so many people are just pressured to only take things seriously when they're being paid for it or only put their time into something that they will get money for that time. And I mean, it makes sense because we need money. I think that's something that's probably going to start plaguing me more soon because of the jump I'm about to make and kind of starting to figure out how to sustainably do this without the kind of classic nine to five that I currently have.
And I'm not sure yet what that transition is going to look like. But I've reflected a lot on the importance of the things that are like “this is my dream”. I think the word ‘Dream’ is something that's maybe a childish thing to call it, but I like to think of it as like my dreams. I think with those things, there's a lot of time and work that has to go in them most of the time before you're gonna see any money. But what I've seen is through following my passions and through making work that I really care about and is something that feels true to me people will see that and see that you're making meaningful work and wanna be a part of it and want to then maybe pay you to do it.
Melissa:
It's amazing. Yeah, It's a testament to creating from the heart and people liking what they see. Do you feel like you're waiting for a particular moment or sign before you make the leap? Or how do you think you'll know you'll be ready?
Hailey:
I think so in the position I'm in right now, it's contracted to end at a certain date, so it's kind of like, “All right, here we go”. I think I'm kind of in the preparation, like I know it's gonna happen. I think in my head I'm okay with like, if I do end up getting a regular nine to five job, I want to do something creative still. I think just having a job where I'm doing something that I like and I care about is important because of that idea I was saying like, there are some jobs that can just be very draining and not necessarily like creatively draining, but just draining to go to every day. And I think then that would not help all of my projects if I was drained at the end of the day. So yeah, we'll see what my process looks like, right? But I'm open.
Melissa:
Yeah. And that openness, I'm sure is a beautiful prerequisite for making the leap and figuring things out. And one thing that jumps out at me about you writing a book and producing an album, all these things that are multiple stages and steps and just take a lot of dedication, showing up time and time again for, for the workfor the creation. And I've found in the people I coach that it helps to have a savings or, if you don't have a savings, it helps to have some income that can come in spurts that still allows you the space to work on that longer term project that kind of eases the mental load around finances. And so sometimes I try to work with people to figure out what is the thing that's sort of the biggest bang for your time and you can ideally not hurt your spirit or your soul too much by doing the job. So I'm hopeful it sounds like you already have some good ideas for what that might be for you.
Hailey:
Yes, yes. I have a couple ideas.
Melissa:
Well I love, I love your mention of Dream and I don't think dreams are childish. I want everyone to have a dream. With coaching, I often work with people on mindset for the bulk of the time. I mean that's a huge part of showing up for the work. There's this concept of kind of the inner critic or sort of the self sabotaging thoughts or voices that come in from time to time and everyone has them. I'm curious for you, if you hear a recurring kind of voice that you have to navigate or mitigate, what does that voice sound like for you and what do you do when it comes up?
Hailey:
That's a good question. I think I definitely can have a voice that goes against what I'm doing, but I don't think I have the more traditional inner critic. But I think one voice and thing that I've kind of learned to to not listen to is kind of that idea of like always being busy and always even like with my creative things to always be working on something. I think there's so much that production idea of like, I always need to be producing something, but I think listening to myself and listening to when I just need to take a break and give myself some time to just read some books or reset or kind of have some of that idleness in my mind is something that does not come naturally to me, but something I now kind of constantly have realized is so important - not always being busy.
Cuz I think also having so many things that I love, it's easy to just fill my time so much that there's no space for that quiet.
Melissa:
Yeah. I resonate with the busyness and especially pre pandemic, it was pretty hard to slow down and sit with myself. I don't totally know if we know where we are in the pandemic or if we’re getting into an endemic stage, but I do think that in big times of transition personally, it really helps to have a coalescing vision of what's next. And I've been thinking a lot about how artists and creatives can't help be some of the visions for society to help us see what's possible next. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like what you see as the role of, of the artist or the creative in times of societal change.
Hailey:
Yeah, that's something during the pandemic I thought about a lot cuz I definitely saw that there was this rise in so many people too that finally had that time to pursue their passions and pursue those like creative dreams in a different way. And I think it's really interesting, like if you look at art history and different books like A Brave New World and then this other book that was also written in the 1930s coming out of the Great Depression, these times of communal grief and the art that comes out of those times. And I think that just made me think a lot about what art will come out of this time and already has come out of it. I don't know if I necessarily have a vision of what that will be, but I think in history it has been just a kind of ground for people to grieve or come to terms with whatever it is that's going on. And you see art after World War II with everything became much more abstract and it's like we kind of find new ways to create with what we're grieving and so I think just art will again be a space to grieve.
Melissa:
Hailey, is there anything that I didn't ask you today that you'd wanna share with listeners knowing that others are aspiring or existing multidisciplinary creatives or people wearing multiple hats?
Hailey:
I just say to be kind with yourself in this process. And also to listen to yourself. Leave room for, for your dreams and doing what you wanna do and know that those things are important. That the things that you care about deserve time and respect.
Melissa:
Beautiful. Yeah. Dreams matter and are valid and require space. Well thank you so much for imparting some of your hard earned wisdom with us.